王霖、付晓东 关于 “文人的画” 对话

 "A Dialogue between Fu Xiaodong and Wang Lin"

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王霖:任教于中国美术学院艺术人文学院研究生导师

付晓东:“空间站”创始人，著名策展人、评论家

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付晓东（以下简称 “付”）：我在观察新时代里文人画画的状况，或者说当代的知识分子画画跟职业画家有什么不同，是一个有意思的现象，可能反而能看清职业艺术家的处境。文人和文人画，技术和手法都已经饱和了,再则怎么花样翻新，都不能满足艺术品鉴的需求了。

 

Fu: I am observing the state of literati painting in the new era, or how the contemporary intellectual’s paintings are different from professional painters. It is an interesting phenomenon, which may help us see the situation of professional artists clearly. Literati and literati painting as well as the techniques and skills are saturated, and no matter how they are refurbished, they cannot meet the needs of art appreciation.

 

王霖（以下简称 “王”）：画画的最终极状态,其实应该就是一个用画笔当思考工具的状态。而且势必要对趣昧之外的更大问题有深度的关注,然后他的艺术才会突破一般艺术家。

 

Wang: The painting should actually be a state of using a brush as a tool for thinking. And it is bound to have a in-depth attention to the larger issues beyond taste, which makes the art tower over ordinary artists.

 

付：于是从画的审美，发展到对人的审美上来了。

 

Fu: So it evolved from the aesthetic of paintings to the aesthetic of people.

 

王：以前只以为画画的最高理想就是技术和趣味的完美匹配,但其实没有从艺术这个壳里突破出来,就永远不可能回望自身的技术和趣味,并对这两者作出恰当的理解和批判,也就无法认识到什么样的匹配才是完美的，而这个时候，匹配的完美，恰恰成副产品了，它不再是艺术的终极目标。

 

Wang: I used to think that the highest ideal of painting is a perfect match between technique and taste. But in fact, without breakthrough out of the art, it will never be possible to look back at the technique and taste, and to have a proper understanding and criticism of the both. Then it is impossible to recognize how to match perfectly. Moreover, the perfect match is just a by-product which is no longer the ultimate goal of art.

 

付：说得好,画也不能完全在艺术史技术传承和翻花的小细节上,而是要有更大的范式上的改变,问题意识和审美观念上的自然而然的变化。真的走到最后,发现以前觉得要紧的问题,可能都并不是真正要紧的，语言突然成为副产品了。

 

Fu: Good point. The paintings can't completely focus on the technology inheritance of art history and the minor details of refurbishment, but there must be a greater normal change, and a natural change in the problem awareness and aesthetic concepts. When we really went to the end, we can discover that the problems important before may not be really that important. The language suddenly becomes a by-product.

 

王：中西艺术在不同阶段的境界追求上并没有截然的差别，每种文化传统里都有伟大的艺术家在做着破茧而出的努力。那些能在形式、技术、趣味上做出大的突破的艺术家,必然在思想上是无法被艺术这个门类所局限或束缚的。

 

Wang: There is no complete difference in the pursuit of realm between Chinese and Western art at different stages. There are great artists in each cultural tradition who are making efforts to emerge from the cocoon.Those artists who can make great breakthroughs in form, technique, and taste must not be confined or constrained by the category of art in their mind.

 

其实文人画是一种状态,但文人却不是一个好词。相比而言，今天的职业画家当然在趣昧方面更不敏感,他们几乎不思考问题。

 

In fact, literati painting is a state, but literati is not a good word. In contrast, today's professional painters are certainly less sensitive to the taste, and they hardly think about any problem.

 

付：那换个什么词好呢?

 

Fu: What word should I change?

 

王：我只是个人的看法,因为这些年一直在讲古代绘画,也在想这个问题,文人画和文人究竟意昧着什么。

 

Wang: It is just my own opinion. As I have been talking about the ancient paintings all these years, and I am also thinking about this question, i.e. what does literati painting and literati mean on earth?

 

付：是不是艺术高度成熟之后的发展趋势呢，我一开始也是觉得职业艺术家目前被资本和市场所压制,容易过分职业化了,反而失去了对更加存粹的本源探寻的驱力，反思得不够清楚,就那么持续下去了。而文人画画的这种现象,可能更接近艺术本来的初衷。

 

Fu: Is it the development trend after the art is highly mature? At the beginning, I felt that the professional artists are currently suppressed by the capital and the market, and they are easily over-professional. They lose their drive to explore more pure origins, and don’t reflect clearly enough.The phenomenon of literati painting may be closer to the original intention of art.

 

王：艺术史是承认语言并且尤其承认语言的,而能提供艺术语言的真正活力者,怡恰来自不受专业局限的那些具有更丰沛深厚思想的艺术家,尽管他们可能并不一定会在其他领域作出与艺术领域同样突出的成就，但艺术的真正滋养恰恰在其他领域。当然这是说那些伟大的人。

 

Wang: The art history recognizes the language and especially the language, and those who can provide the real vitality of artistic language are those artists who are not limited by their professionalism and have more profound ideas. Although they may not necessarily make the same outstanding achievements as art in other fields, the real nourishment of art is precisely in other fields. Of course this refers to the great people.

 

付：更像是一次逃逸,思想的承载也好,自我的疏解也好,为自已画,懂的建立体系,而且又有太多要表达的东西积压。

 

Fu: It’s more like an escape. Whether a carrying of thoughts or self-relaxation, they draw for themselves, build a system and have a backlog of things to express.

 

王：过去不理解何以文人画家常说职业画家胸中少千卷书,所以画不好。后来明白了,书,不是为了点缀自己有文化,而是抵达精微的趣味并对艺术史有整体理解与把握的最重要的舟楫。

 

Wang: In the past, I didn't understand why literati painters often said that they couldn’t paint well because of lacking thousands of books in their minds. Later, I realized that reading books is not to embellish my knowledge, but to get a subtle taste, and it is the most important means to have an overall understanding and grasp of art history.

 

付：艺术的最大功用就是他的无为而为,不成而成,所有做作的为了创新而创新的状态，无疑是如同“阿基里斯与龟”那个电影中的荒诞,而基于强大的思想体系的流溢和喷涌,才是时代凝结出来的创造力的精华。

 

Fu: The greatest function of art is nothing but for availability. All the artificial states of innovation are undoubtedly like the absurdity in the movie "Achilles and the Tortoise". However, the overflowing and gushing which is based on a powerful thought system is just the essence of creativity condensed by the times.